SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 127 - Hereditary

Discussion in 'Mayberry Lounge' started by europe1, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. europe1

    europe1 It´s a nice peninsula to Asia

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2009
    Messages:
    20,550
    Likes Received:
    14,009
    Location:
    West of Finland, East of Norway
    NOTE to NON-MEMBERS: Interested in joining the SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB? Shoot me a PM for more info!

    Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.

    Scariness level: 3 terrified @Rimbaud82s and 1½ horrified @Tufts!!! + 30 extra @MusterX points for the occult elements.


    [​IMG]

    Our Director

    Ari Aster

    [​IMG]


    Our Stars

    Toni Collette

    [​IMG]

    Alex Wolff

    [​IMG]

    Premise: After the family matriarch passes away, a grieving family is haunted by tragic and disturbing occurrences, and begin to unravel dark secrets.​

    Budget: $10 million

    Box Office
    :
    $79.3 million

    Trivia
    (Courtesy of IMDB)

    * In an interview, Alex Wolff explains that he wanted to actually break his own nose for the scene where his character slams his head into a desk. Director Ari Aster respectfully declined that offer and told Wolff they'd give him a soft, cushioned desk for the scene. When it was time for the scene to be shot, Wolff slams his head into the desk only to discover that the top was foam and the bottom was hard. He dislocated his jaw (which is a previous injury the actor has had) for the scene.

    * Throughout the film, several words can be seen scrawled on walls. At one point, there are two words, LIFTOACH PANDEMONIUM. Liftoach is an English transliteration of the Hebrew word 'To open'.

    * The entire interior of the Graham house was built on a sound stage.

    *For Ari, Hereditary is equally inspired by family dramas (Ordinary People, The Ice Storm, In the Bedroom) as it is by classic horror films (Rosemary's Baby, Don't Look Now, The Innocents).

    * The language spoken during the "invocation" that is given to Toni Collette is a combination of Hebrew and Enochian.

    * When Peter and Charlie are on their way to the party, the cult's logo can be seen carved into the pole that later decapitates Charlie. (To slow Musterx!)

    Members: @europe1 @MusterX @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Cubo de Sangre @sickc0d3r @FrontNakedChoke @AndersonsFoot @Tufts @Coolthulu @Yotsuya @jei @LHWBelt @moreorless87 @ArtemV @Bullitt68 @HenryFlower @Rimbaud82 @Deus Ex Machina
     
    Tufts, FrontNakedChoke, Fraz and 3 others like this.
  2. Rimbaud82

    Rimbaud82 Brown Belt

    Joined:
    May 19, 2014
    Messages:
    4,600
    Likes Received:
    4,691
    Location:
    Belfast, Ireland.
    woops, completely missed Cinderella Man (been busy this week), will make sure to watch this asap.
     
    FrontNakedChoke likes this.
  3. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    30,294
    Location:
    Hell
    Can't say I'd recommend this one. Much longer than it needed to be. Not really clear what's going on/what happened. Not very climactic. Not particularly scary or creepy.

    When compared to something like The Babadook, this film just isn't very effective.
     
  4. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    6,147
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Location:
    Wet with salvation
    Had its moments, but overall it was just pretty good. Some things were downright silly, like Peter bringing his dead sister's headless body home, dropping it in the bed, and then going to bed himself so his mom would find a rotting corpse in the morning. WTF?

    Anyway, King Paimon is a pretty random demon to worship. One of 72, I believe, and he's like the demon of art and science or something. The lore says he is male with feminine features, so maybe it's an lgbtq thing.

    In the movie the book that Annie finds in the attic noted that Paimon likes to possess humans and he favors a male body. Charlie said grandma wanted her to be a boy, and her name is ambiguous as well. Grandma even made her a doormat with the name Charles instead of Charlie. My take is that Charlie was possessed by Paimon, which would explain her strange behavior. Since Annie wouldn't let Grandma "get her hooks into Peter" she had to bide her time to try and make the exchange with a male host. Paimon knew he wanted out of that body and I think when he cut off the dead bird's head he was planning her (Charlie's--the girl he inhabited) sacrifice. Paimon is also known to enjoy a good beheading as a sign of obedience.

    Apparently Annie's brother caught on to Grandma's life choices because he was a schizo that said she was trying to put people into him. He eventually killed himself, so I guess all that was left in the bloodline was Peter.

    Grandma's cult friend Joan was able to convince Annie to perform the ritual herself and to make sure that Peter was present. This must have been to ensure Paimon would have a body when he was invoked. The seance was never meant to bring back Charlie, it was to summon Paimon.

    This one ramped it up to redline craziness at the end, and it kind of had the opposite of a thrilling effect for me. The same spooky tricks were used over and over again (pan slowly... slowly... LOOK, SCARY THING!). Although, Annie banging her head on the attic stairs was a freaky visual that I liked.

    The movie peaked in the second act, when Annie (Collette is a great actress by the way) really started coming unraveled. The family drama played well and, while I found it kind of hard to keep my focus, the slow burn of the first two thirds of the story was better than the reveal.
     
  5. LHWBelt

    LHWBelt Silver Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2008
    Messages:
    11,888
    Likes Received:
    4,820
    Anyone else have trouble finding this one? I'm struggling.
     
  6. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    30,294
    Location:
    Hell
    Was she supposed to be possessed at that point? She was "normal" right before that.
     
    FrontNakedChoke likes this.
  7. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    6,147
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Location:
    Wet with salvation
    I think Paimon was jumping from body to body, so yes. Something to do with the notebook being thrown in the fire since it was his (Charlies) before Charlie croaked.

    In the attic Peter went out the window to his death and Annie cut her own head off with a wire or something, then the strange lights floated down to Peter's body.
     
  8. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    6,147
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Location:
    Wet with salvation
    I used Amazon prime.
     
    FrontNakedChoke likes this.
  9. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    30,294
    Location:
    Hell
    Ahhh. I didn't catch on that he might have died there.

    What was with Charlie starting to choke and couldn't breathe, but then later Peter started doing the same thing and he just had his buddy hold his hand?
     
    FrontNakedChoke and sickc0d3r like this.
  10. GSPSAKU

    GSPSAKU Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    I thought it could have been so much better but there were a few key parts that left me scratching my head. As sickcOd3r mentioned, how did the son kill his sister, behead her, and drive back home and simply go home? And act like he had no clue? Who would do that? And then when the mom is upset, he puts it on her for forcing the sister to go with him...how did he not tell his parents?

    I could accpet that but the ending was just too much of a stretch and a twist for me. I just didn't care for the final reveal, how it was portrayed and felt random. Sorry, walked away very disappointed and didn't care to watch it again
     
    europe1 likes this.
  11. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    6,147
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Location:
    Wet with salvation
    Charlie was alergic to nuts, and the cake she ate at the party had nuts in it (remember they made a point to show that chick chopping walnuts?).

    I guess Peter was just having sympathy chokes, or a nervous breakdown. I don't think Paimon had him at that point, but maybe he did, partially, since Charlie was beheaded in the car with him. In which case he might have been remembering choking. I figured the seance was required for full possession, but maybe he can sort of attach himself until then.

    That would change some things. Like why would he jump out of Peter and into Annie? Maybe Peter had to die in order to be fully possessed? Annie sure looked fully possessed, though.

    I'll bet @MusterX can explain all this.
     
  12. HenryFlower

    HenryFlower (sheesh!)

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2014
    Messages:
    7,050
    Likes Received:
    3,440
    excited to talk about this one. my bluray just came in the mail yesterday, but might take me a few days to get to it because I have a wedding to go to this weekend. saw it in theaters & loved it, but definitely want that rewatch before I post again in here w/ the SMC crew
     
    FrontNakedChoke likes this.
  13. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    35,891
    Likes Received:
    29,299
    The truth is I was going to keep this low key until that last half hour transpired and hit me like a George "W" Shock and Awe campaign.

    [​IMG]

    The problem is when you conclude with "All Hail Paimon!", I can't just let that slide as a cute little knick-knack in the corner of this film's narrative.

    Charlie was the host for Paimon until a suitable male body could be procured. Paimon would have been put into Charlie's body from birth by the mother Ellen who we later find out is referred to as Queen Leigh by the cult. Paimon is accompanied by the sound of music as well as being described as a tinkling sound. This is probably where Charlie got her clicking sound. We also get a representation of that as symbols playing as Charlie's brother Peter ascends into the treehouse as King Paimon.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    So who is King Paimon? What is the source material? King Paimon is one of the 8 Kings of hell and is listed as the 9th spirit of the 72 demons listed in the Lesser Key of Solomon. I originally thought tracking down the origins of King Paimon and his cohorts would be easy, cut and dried, but as it turns out, it was not. There are conflicting stories and trace routes but to the best of my ability it can be traced thusly.

    Johannes Trithemius, 1462-1516, this guy was a German Benedictine Abbot, a polymath, a lexicographer, chronicler, cryptographer and occultist that has influenced much of modern occultism. He writes of two manuscripts that we are interested in, the Liber quoque Officiorum, and De Officiis Spirituum that contain the hierarchy of hell.

    [​IMG]
    Johannes Trithemius

    Trithemius' student was the famous theologian Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa who lived from 1486 to 1535.

    [​IMG]
    Heinrich Agrippa

    Agrippa is a well known polymath, physician, legal scholar, soldier, theologian, and occult writer. He wrote three occult books called, De occulta philosophia libri tres (Three Books Concerning Occult Philosophy). This is important because his student was a man named Johann Weyer.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Johann Weyer

    In 1577 Johann Weyer writes a book called De praestigiis daemonum and it lists in its appendix the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum which translated is false monarchy of demons. This appendix lists 69 demons in the hierarchy of hell, later authors revise it to 72. Weyer lists one of his source manuscripts as Liber officiorum spirituum which is a tome that has been lost. It is believed that he combined the two manuscripts listed by Johannes Trithemius, Liber quoque Officiorum, and De Officiis Spirituum, to get his name Liber officiorum spirituum.

    [​IMG]
    Reginald Scot's Discoverie of Witchcraft

    In 1584 a man named Reginald Scot wrote a book called The Discoverie of Witchcraft in which he studied 212 authors, mostly ancient texts in Latin, as well as Weyer's book of demons. It is interesting to note that Scot wanted to prove that Witchcraft and belief in demons was caused my mental disturbances. This ties in to the alternate idea in the film Hereditary that schizophrenia was the cause.

    Thomas Rudd, 1583-1656 has also been mentioned by other authors such as Peter J. French who wrote The World according to an Elizebethan Magus claims Rudd was "steeped in Hermeticism." Occultic author Stephen Skinner wrote a book called The Goetia of Dr. Rudd in which he claims Rudd was at the center of a group of "angel magicians."

    [​IMG]
    John Dee

    Rudd was a fan of John Dee (1527-1609) who wrote multiple occult books about the language of Angels and Demons. Dee believed if he could translate the language of Angels then he would learn the secrets of the universe. Dee had one of the largest personal libraries in the world before he died and was also known to transcribe many occult books by hand. One such example is this drawing from Stenographia by Johannes Trithemius

    [​IMG]

    John Dee's "Seal of God" which is used to perform magical rituals is on display at the British Museum.

    [​IMG]

    Along comes Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers who lived from 1854-1918. The fact this guy has both Liddell and MacGregor (McGregor) in his name has to be a sign, right? Right?! Mathers was one of the founders of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which still exists today. He was a polyglot and translated multiple manuscripts such as The Book of Abramelin which originated from the 14th century, Key of Solomon, The Lesser Key of Solomon, and the Grimoire of Armadel.

    Mathers one time friend and pupil was none other than Aleister Crowely.

    [​IMG]

    Now we are into the 1900's but to explain the impact of Aleister Crowley on the modern occult movement would be impossible in this post. Crowley took Mather's translations and added some rituals for these demons as well as some of the sigils. This sigil work looks like it was ripped from John Dee who also used Sigils. This was called "Dee's Glyph" for example.

    [​IMG]

    All of these men wrote of King Paimon and the 72 demons that rule hell although some list it as 69. This was King Paimon's sigil as seen in the movie.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a list of all 72 sigils of power. Paimon's can be seen in the upper right corner.

    [​IMG]

    The idea in all of these books is that of the 72 demons that rule hell, only 8 of them are kings. The others are listed in The Lesser Key of Solomon as Princes, Duke's, etc. Even among the 8 kings there is a hierarchy of power with King Paimon being one of the most powerful. King Paimon is known as being the most loyal to Lucifer of all the king's. Paimon's abilities include, "knowledge of past and future events, clearing up doubts, making spirits appear, creating visions, acquiring and dismissing servant spirits, reanimating the dead for several years, flight, remaining underwater indefinitely, and general abilities to 'make all kinds of things' (and) 'all sorts of people and armor appear.'"

    When summoned, if its a full summoning which I believe is what the cult in Hereditary were doing, Paimon is attended by two lesser kings of hell with with 25 legions of spirits. During the film Annie found a picture of Paimon on a camel which is his traditional logo and if you look under where Paimon is sitting you will see a bag with 3 heads in it.

    [​IMG]

    These were the heads of Charlie, Ellen, and Annie and represent the full summoning of Paimon and his two attendant kings.
     
  14. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    30,294
    Location:
    Hell
    The allergy made sense, but Peter doing something similar didn't. Like I said, this film does a poor job of explaining itself.

    Reminds me of the letter from Mom that Annie found in the book. Something about doing it for the family, wasn't it?
     
    sickc0d3r likes this.
  15. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    35,891
    Likes Received:
    29,299
    Prepare to have your mind blown. Probably not blown but here it is.

    Chocolate has long been known as "the Devil's temptation." That's where you get things like Devil's food cake.

    [​IMG]

    The opposite of that being angel food cake which is not chocolate.

    [​IMG]

    We always see Charlie eating chocolate in the film.

    Be it chocolate bars or at the party, chocolate cake.

    [​IMG]

    So here is the thing. Annie wouldn't have anything to do with her mother Ellen. She had a son who committed suicide because he said grandma Ellen put people in his body. Later on Annie had Charlie and she reconnected with her mother. Annie tells the story of how she couldn't even feed Charlie because her mother Ellen had to do it. We see this in the models.

    [​IMG]

    Ellen, known as Queen Leigh, managed to put King Paimon into Charlie when she was a baby. This is why Charlie builds weird models, makes clicking noises, and cuts the heads off birds.

    [​IMG]

    The problem, is that King Paimon prefers a suitable male body, not female. Charlie was just the temporary home of Paimon until Ellen and the cult could get Peter's body. Ellen even had made a door mat that said Charles because she was praying that Charlie was born a boy. Charlie and Paimon are in the process of wearing down Peter when the classroom scene happens. Peter appears to be swollen up from a nut allergy which is Charlie possessing him and his hand is arced forward like that of King Paimon in the picture Ellen had.

    [​IMG]

    I've timestamped this and you don't have to watch until the end where Peter cracks his own face but what I want you to notice is that he is swollen from the nut allergy of charlie and his had curves forward like the picture of Paimon above. Both Charlie and Paimon are temporarily possessing Peter in order to wear him down.



    In addition to that the bonus here is that while watching various material I came across an interview where the director Ari Aster says, "Hereditary is a film about a family that's going to hell"

    Charlie is already in hell with Paimon and soon the others will be too. Its Hereditary.
     
  16. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre Steel Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2014
    Messages:
    32,449
    Likes Received:
    30,294
    Location:
    Hell
    You're pretty good at this.

    What did Annie do to get possessed? Can these demons just possess anyone? Seemed like a ritual was needed (as per Mom's friend conning her into performing one) but now I'm confused on what the purpose of that was. Especially with the notion that Charlie was possessed early on via being fed by granny.
     
    FrontNakedChoke likes this.
  17. GSPSAKU

    GSPSAKU Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    2,043
    I understood this and reread my post. I meant to say "how could Peter kill his sister and just go home and leave her dead body in his car?" I recall her being allergic to nuts and yes, Paimon didn't enter his body yet at that point when Charlie was beheaded.
     
    FrontNakedChoke and sickc0d3r like this.
  18. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    35,891
    Likes Received:
    29,299
    I'm not 100% sure but basically in occult worship you open yourself to these things. For example you shouldn't bring a Ouija board into your house because it opens the door for evil spirits. There are all sorts of rules like this in the occult. In the movie, Joan pretended to just be concerned about Annie when she went to the 12 step meeting. In reality Joan was the second in command behind Ellen and when Ellen died Joan appears to have taken over.

    Joan has Annie come to her house and teaches her how to do a seance. This is important because Joan needed to get Annie to do this willingly. Then you get the scene of Annie, the husband, and Peter in the basement doing the seance trying to summon Charlie. Only problem is that Charlie is already in hell with Paimon and they have now opened themselves up to more oppression and/or possession.

    Paimon was in Charlie but when Charlie died he was back into the ether or hell, or wherever. Then when Annie sacrificed her husband by throwing the book in the fire, Paimon was able to jump into Annie, she essentially summoned him with the death of her husband. This isn't the full summon though because the actual texts that discuss these things say Paimon can be summoned just him or a full summoning which is Paimon, 2 lesser kings of hell, and 25 legions of spirits.

    The problem is, Paimon doesn't want a female body, he wants a male body. So Annie cuts her own head off and Peter jumps out the window. Paimon moves from Annie to Peter and the full summoning occurs, because there is 3 heads, the head of Charlie, the head of Ellen, and the head of Annie.
     
  19. sickc0d3r

    sickc0d3r Black Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2008
    Messages:
    6,147
    Likes Received:
    5,089
    Location:
    Wet with salvation
    Didn't notice the hand in the picture, nice catch! It also did not occur to me that both Charlie and Paimon were possessing people, that clears some things up. I assumed it was all Paimon, hopping from body to body. Now with Charlie and Paimon in the picture, who had Annie before she cut her own head off? I guess it was Charlie because she burned her notebook?

    Ed: nvm, I see you agree with my first thought that it was Paimon in Annie, who then leapt into Peter.
     
    FrontNakedChoke and europe1 like this.
  20. Scott Parker 27

    Scott Parker 27 Your Mom's Box

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Messages:
    2,728
    Likes Received:
    3,229
    Location:
    ball sack
    Watching this now. First of all, what the fuck is wrong with you guys and gal making me watch a little girl girl get beheaded with maggots. You're all sick. I will report back if I finish.

    Edit: of finished this. I'm glad I stuck through it, I liked this a lot. Lots of twists I didn't see coming and the family basically imploding fucked me up. I thought of my wife and kids.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018
    FrontNakedChoke likes this.

Share This Page